Church Historian Dr. Mazza on LifeSite: "[On] Bp. Schneider's statement...I can't think of a statement...more un-Catholic than to say that the Pope can teach grievous error...& not only that, but there's nothing we can do"
What Church History REVEALS About Leo’s Pontificate: Burke, Miriam & Schneider’s Analysis...
We thank Dr. Ed Mazza and LifeSite News' John Henry Westen for giving The Catholic Monitor permission to post a series of probably four or five transcriptions of the important show. This is part one of the series:
John-Henry Westen: Well, as you can see, the crisis in the Church has reached a tipping point, I guess. This morning we had news from Bishop Paprocki that the SSPX, well, they're just now Protestants anyway. But I don't want to talk about Bishop Paprocki today. I want to talk about three people in the Church that I know and love, that at least at some point I was able to call friends. They're heroes of mine in the Church who have fought the crisis in the Church, who have called out the errors of at least Francis. And it's terrible because there's so much division in the Church right now. The best people are fighting the best people.
These three people I'm going to mention now, I consider likely one day they will be named saints, all of them. And I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm going to talk about what they're saying right now. I'm going to look at it critically, with the help of a Church historian, actually, whom you all know. His name is Ed Mazza. He is a historian, a Church medieval historian.
He's done lots of work in this area. He's written a few books now. He's got a new book out on antipopes. Ed Mazza, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, it's a pleasure as always. I'm going to start is a Sign of the Cross. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. I'm going to start with a good friend of mine who recently came out with her position on the SSPX. This is Mother Miriam. She's super famous because she was Jewish, then converted to become an Evangelical, and then tried to convert Catholics for about 10 years, and then became a Catholic, and under Cardinal Burke, founded her own order, and now works to promote the truth, and is unafraid to call out the errors, even the errors of Francis and Leo. But here was her take on the current situation with the SSPX. Let's have a listen.
Neither pope has given us a faithful, a matter of doctrine that is of faith and morals that is wrong, in error, and bounded on the faithful. How do we know that Pope Leo is the pope, and that Pope Francis was the? Because they have been universally accepted as pope now. If they're false, it'll take a future pope to declare that. But we can't know that. We cannot know that they're accepted as pope by the Church, even if they teach heresy.
From there also, though, we have Bishop Schneider. Another man I know and love and honestly think he's going to be a saint, and he too has recognized the errors of Francis and even Leo, but he has a thesis that is very controversial. I want to read you a line from his thesis, and it's a very interesting one, and I think one that shocks in a particular way. I talked to him at length in various interviews about this very topic years ago already. But I want to just read you from his essay over at OnePeter5, which I think is very succinct. He says, "The Pope cannot commit heresy when he speaks ex cathedra. This is a dogma of faith. In his teaching outside of ex cathedra statements, however, he can commit doctrinal ambiguities, errors, and even heresies. And since the Pope is not identical with the entire Church, the Church is stronger than a singular erring or heretical Pope."
Just so that we're all clear on heresies, I want to let you know that we are talking about heresies, and this is where the third character whom I know and love and is also, Cardinal Raymond Burke, who I also think will someday be a saint, but he has said and avowed that what we're dealing with when it comes to certain teachings, the death penalty, is a reversal of Church teaching on the death penalty teaching. The new one by Francis is in the Catechism, and it's been not only reiterated, but emphasized and more than highlighted, doubled down on by Leo XIV.
Listen, this is Cardinal Burke saying in 2019 after Francis had come out with the new teaching on the death penalty, which opposed the old teaching. Here's what Cardinal Burke had to say. And by the way, Cardinal Burke did this in union with Cardinal Pujats, as well as Archbishop Tomas Peta, and Archbishop Jan Pawel Lenga, and Bishop Schneider. This was their assessment of just the one heresy. They say, in accordance with the Holy Scripture and the constant tradition of the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church, did not err in teaching that the civil power may lawfully exercise capital punishment, i.e. the death penalty, on malefactors where this is truly necessary to preserve the existence or just order of societies.
In case you're wondering about it, here's Pope Leo reiterating Francis's heretical teaching on the death penalty, and then his doubling down. Watch this. It's important to look at many issues that are related to what is the teaching of the Church. Someone who says, I'm against abortion, but says I'm in favor of the death penalty, is not really pro-life. So someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants or in the United States, I don't know if that's pro-life. So they're very complex issues. And I'm really hoping that you, Ed Mazza, can make some sense of this for us.
We now have this teaching best expounded by Bishop Schneider that Popes can, indeed, teach errors, as long as it's not in ex cathedra statements. And Mother Miriam seems to follow that logic when condemning the SSPX, because she says that we are to follow, but she adds, not when he's commanding sin, comparing that to a husband who is to be listened to by his wife unless there's sin. And then Cardinal Burke as well, saying we must obey, you know, the SSPX must obey the Holy Father. All of them accepting this premise that was basically best enunciated by Bishop Schneider, that a pope can indeed, in his official teaching on faith and morals, give us heresy.
Let me start off with this question. The last ex cathedra statement in the Church, when was that? In 1950, Pius XII solemnly defined the Assumption of Our Lady. I guess since then, we could have had anything goes. Any heretical teaching on faith and morals could have been possible. And we're just, I guess, really lucky that it's only been Francis and Leo and everybody else didn't, and faith could look completely different. I'm trying to make sense of this. I don't mean to be flippant, but it's really a central question. And you had a line in your book that really struck me because it really pinpointed this, and it was this line, and I'm hoping you can expand on that for us. You said, we're forced to choose between the conclusion that the Bergoglian pontificate, that means Francis's pontificate, was invalid, or that the ordinary papal magisterium can teach dangerous errors, something that no ecumenical council or canonized saint has ever taught. Tell us if you would.
Dr. Ed Mazza: Because the question is not whether or not the SSPX bishops have excommunicated themselves. The question is, is the Pope the Pope? And this is a question that few people have been willing to grapple with publicly for over 13 years now. Okay. Francis was not Francis. And for all appearances, Leo is not Leo. These are manifest public heretics parading as legitimate popes.They're antipopes. And heretics don't have the power to excommunicate anybody, as we can get into.
But I want to make that clear. There's an elephant in the room. And with all due respect to Mother Miriam, Cardinal Burke, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, and everybody else in the Catholic world, that's what we have to understand. The first question is, do we have an antipope squatting on the chair of Peter?
Our Lady of Fatima, in the third secret, as we have been told by different prelates in the Church, said that the devil would infiltrate the Church, there would be apostasy starting from the top. That's the first thing we got to get on the table here.
That being said, the next thing we have to address is Bishop Schneider's statement. I can't think of a statement in 2,000 years of Catholic history that is more un-Catholic than to say that the Pope can teach grievous error and even be a flaming heretic. And not only that, but there's nothing we can do, we just have to live with it.
So where to begin? Well, let's begin with Catholic teaching on the role of the Pope within the Catholic Church. You were very kind to point out all of this is in my book, Saints vs. Antipopes. There are over 135 theologians who have grappled with the issue of can a Pope be a heretic, and if a Pope was a heretic, what would happen?
Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, said that if the Pope were a heretic, he would automatically lose his office. Suarez is another famous theologian who agreed with him. On the other side of the question, there's John of Saint Thomas, for example, who says that, well, an imperfect council would have to be held in order to actually depose the heretical Pope. Now, out of these 130-plus theologians who have come to grips with this issue, only one, Marie-Dominique Bouix, thought that the heretic Pope would still be Pope.
Those people who claim that Leo was a heretic or Francis was a heretic, but he's still Pope, and we still owe him obedience, and he still has the jurisdiction to excommunicate people, they're following one person out of 135, and they're not even doing that. Because every theologian will, I'll just read you the quote. This is from Marie-Dominique Bouix. But on the hypothesis that the Pope could turn privately heretic, I would deny in an absolute way that he would be deposed ipso facto, or that he could be deposed by any council.
Now, Saint Robert Bellarmine classified this opinion as exceedingly improbable. And again, this is the only opinion out of 135. The bottom line is this. All these hundreds of theologians that have talked about the possibility of a Pope becoming a heretic, and then what to do with him. Does he lose his office automatically, or do we need an imperfect council? Or in the case of Marie-Dominique Bouix, there's nothing you can do. In all of these cases, they are postulating the Pope fell into heresy as a private teacher, as a private doctor. As far as I'm aware, there is no one in Catholic history, in 2,000 years of Catholic history, no saint, no council, that has ever taught that a Vicar of Christ, a successor of Saint Peter, a Pope, qua Pope, acting as Pope in his ordinary or his extraordinary magisterium, could teach heresy.
There is no such teaching in the Catholic Church. In fact, quite the opposite I can prove. [This transcription was made with the help of https://chatgpt.com/]
Note: The next post in this series will be Dr. Mazza proving that a Pope "acting as Pope in his ordinary or his extraordinary magisterium" can not teach heresy.
I ask all The Catholic Monitor readers to also pray for the end of this war. Watch "Trump Calls Putin To Get Iran War Offramp! w/ Scott Ritter" on YouTube: ...Read more Please Pray for Trump to end the Iran War: Watch "Trump Calls Putin To Get Iran War Offramp! w/ Scott Ritter" on YouTubeFranklin & Graham calls on Christians to pray for 'end to the bloodshed' ahead of Trump-Putin summit...7mo
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Conclave Notes:
-- Open letter urges Pope Leo XIV to correct ‘scandalous incoherence’ in Amoris Laetitia...[Wow! Even notorious Popesplainer Fr.] Harrison warns that Pope Francis taught a ‘dangerous self-contradiction’ on Communion for the divorced and ‘remarried,’ petitioning Pope Leo to correct the record. [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2025/08/open-letter-urges-pope-leo-xiv-to.html]
-- Are the Cardinals who will participate in the upcoming conclave authentically appointed & morally justified in voting, or will the shadow of Francis's possible illegitimacy cast itself over the next papacy? [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2025/04/are-cardinals-who-will-participate-in.html]
-- 5 Dubia Questions for 1P5's Steve Skojec & All faithful Catholics especially Francis is definitely Pope Cardinals, Bishops & pundits [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2019/06/5-dubia-questions-for-steve-skojec.html]
Francis Notes:
l– Doctor of the Church St. Francis de Sales totally confirmed beyond any doubt the possibility of a heretical pope and what must be done by the Church in such a situation:
“[T]he Pope… WHEN he is EXPLICITLY a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church MUST either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See.”
(The Catholic Controversy, by St. Francis de Sales, Pages 305-306)
Saint Robert Bellarmine, also, said “the Pope heretic is not deposed ipso facto, but must be declared deposed by the Church.”
[https://archive.org/stream/SilveiraImplicationsOfNewMissaeAndHereticPopes/Silveira%20Implications%20of%20New%20Missae%20and%20Heretic%20Popes_djvu.txt]
– “If Francis is a Heretic, What should Canonically happen to him?”: http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2020/12/if-francis-is-heretic-what-should.html
– “Could Francis be a Antipope even though the Majority of Cardinals claim he is Pope?”: http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2019/03/could-francis-be-antipope-even-though.html
– If Francis betrays Benedict XVI & the”Roman Rite Communities” like he betrayed the Chinese Catholics we must respond like St. Athanasius, the Saintly English Bishop Robert Grosseteste & “Eminent Canonists and Theologians” by “Resist[ing]” him: https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2021/12/if-francis-betrays-benedict-xvi.html
– LifeSiteNews, “Confusion explodes as Pope Francis throws magisterial weight behind communion for adulterers,” December 4, 2017:
The AAS guidelines explicitly allows “sexually active adulterous couples facing ‘complex circumstances’ to ‘access the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist.'”
– On February 2018, in Rorate Caeli, Catholic theologian Dr. John Lamont:
“The AAS statement… establishes that Pope Francis in Amoris Laetitia has affirmed propositions that are heretical in the strict sense.”
– On December 2, 2017, Bishop Rene Gracida:
“Francis’ heterodoxy is now official. He has published his letter to the Argentina bishops in Acta Apostlica Series making those letters magisterial documents.”
Pray an Our Father now for the restoration of the Church by the bishops by the grace of God.
Election Notes:
– Intel Cryptanalyst-Mathematician on Biden Steal: “212Million Registered Voters & 66.2% Voting,140.344 M Voted…Trump got 74 M, that leaves only 66.344 M for Biden” [http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/intel-cryptanalyst-mathematician-on.html?m=1]
– Will US be Venezuela?: Ex-CIA Official told Epoch Times “Chávez started to Focus on [Smartmatic] Voting Machines to Ensure Victory as early as 2003”: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/will-us-be-venezuela-ex-cia-official.html
– Tucker Carlson’s Conservatism Inc. Biden Steal Betrayal is explained by “One of the Greatest Columns ever Written” according to Rush: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/tucker-carlsons-conservatism-inc-biden.html?m=1
– A Hour which will Live in Infamy: 10:01pm November 3, 2020:
http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2021/01/a-hour-which-will-live-in-infamy-1001pm.html?m=1
What is needed right now to save America from those who would destroy our God given rights is to pray at home or in church and if called to even go to outdoor prayer rallies in every town and city across the United States for God to pour out His grace on our country to save us from those who would use a Reichstag Fire-like incident to destroy our civil liberties. [Is the [J6] DC Capitol Incident Comparable to the Nazi Reichstag Fire Incident where the German People Lost their Civil Liberties?: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/is-dc-capital-incident-comparable-to.html?m=1 and Epoch Times Show Crossroads on Capitol Incident: “Anitfa ‘Agent Provocateurs‘”:
http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/epoch-times-show-crossroads-on-capital.html?m=1]
Pray an Our Father now for the grace to know God’s Will and to do it.
Pray an Our Father now for America.
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