Church Historian Dr. Mazza on LifeSite: "Bp. Schneider & philosopher Ed Feser...teach that the Pope can make serious, grievous errors in these other modes...There is no backing to this, there is no foundation to assuming that"
What Church History REVEALS About Leo’s Pontificate: Burke, Miriam & Schneider’s Analysis...
We thank Dr. Ed Mazza and LifeSite News' John Henry Westen for giving The Catholic Monitor permission to post a series of probably four or five transcriptions of this important show. This is part two of the series:
John-Henry Westen: We now have this teaching best expounded by Bishop Schneider that Popes can, indeed, teach errors, as long as it's not in ex cathedra statements. And Mother Miriam seems to follow that logic when condemning the SSPX, because she says that we are to follow, but she adds, not when he's commanding sin, comparing that to a husband who is to be listened to by his wife unless there's sin. And then Cardinal Burke as well, saying we must obey, you know, the SSPX must obey the Holy Father. All of them accepting this premise that was basically best enunciated by Bishop Schneider, that a pope can indeed, in his official teaching on faith and morals, give us heresy.
Let me start off with this question. The last ex cathedra statement in the Church, when was that? In 1950, Pius XII solemnly defined the Assumption of Our Lady. I guess since then, we could have had anything goes. Any heretical teaching on faith and morals could have been possible. And we're just, I guess, really lucky that it's only been Francis and Leo and everybody else didn't, and faith could look completely different. I'm trying to make sense of this. I don't mean to be flippant, but it's really a central question. And you had a line in your book that really struck me because it really pinpointed this, and it was this line, and I'm hoping you can expand on that for us. You said, we're forced to choose between the conclusion that the Bergoglian pontificate, that means Francis's pontificate, was invalid, or that the ordinary papal magisterium can teach dangerous errors, something that no ecumenical council or canonized saint has ever taught. Tell us if you would.
Dr. Ed Mazza: Because the question is not whether or not the SSPX bishops have excommunicated themselves. The question is, is the Pope the Pope? And this is a question that few people have been willing to grapple with publicly for over 13 years now. Okay. Francis was not Francis. And for all appearances, Leo is not Leo. These are manifest public heretics parading as legitimate popes.They're antipopes. And heretics don't have the power to excommunicate anybody, as we can get into.
But I want to make that clear. There's an elephant in the room. And with all due respect to Mother Miriam, Cardinal Burke, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, and everybody else in the Catholic world, that's what we have to understand. The first question is, do we have an antipope squatting on the chair of Peter?
Our Lady of Fatima, in the third secret, as we have been told by different prelates in the Church, said that the devil would infiltrate the Church, there would be apostasy starting from the top. That's the first thing we got to get on the table here.
That being said, the next thing we have to address is Bishop Schneider's statement. I can't think of a statement in 2,000 years of Catholic history that is more un-Catholic than to say that the Pope can teach grievous error and even be a flaming heretic. And not only that, but there's nothing we can do, we just have to live with it.
So where to begin? Well, let's begin with Catholic teaching on the role of the Pope within the Catholic Church. You were very kind to point out all of this is in my book, Saints vs. Antipopes. There are over 135 theologians who have grappled with the issue of can a Pope be a heretic, and if a Pope was a heretic, what would happen?
Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, said that if the Pope were a heretic, he would automatically lose his office. Suarez is another famous theologian who agreed with him. On the other side of the question, there's John of Saint Thomas, for example, who says that, well, an imperfect council would have to be held in order to actually depose the heretical Pope. Now, out of these 130-plus theologians who have come to grips with this issue, only one, Marie-Dominique Bouix, thought that the heretic Pope would still be Pope.
Those people who claim that Leo was a heretic or Francis was a heretic, but he's still Pope, and we still owe him obedience, and he still has the jurisdiction to excommunicate people, they're following one person out of 135, and they're not even doing that. Because every theologian will, I'll just read you the quote. This is from Marie-Dominique Bouix. But on the hypothesis that the Pope could turn privately heretic, I would deny in an absolute way that he would be deposed ipso facto, or that he could be deposed by any council.
Now, Saint Robert Bellarmine classified this opinion as exceedingly improbable. And again, this is the only opinion out of 135. The bottom line is this. All these hundreds of theologians that have talked about the possibility of a Pope becoming a heretic, and then what to do with him. Does he lose his office automatically, or do we need an imperfect council? Or in the case of Marie-Dominique Bouix, there's nothing you can do. In all of these cases, they are postulating the Pope fell into heresy as a private teacher, as a private doctor. As far as I'm aware, there is no one in Catholic history, in 2,000 years of Catholic history, no saint, no council, that has ever taught that a Vicar of Christ, a successor of Saint Peter, a Pope, qua Pope, acting as Pope in his ordinary or his extraordinary magisterium, could teach heresy.
Westen: Can you just clarify that point for a second? Because you said in his ordinary or extraordinary magisterium. Define that. What does that mean?
Mazza: When the Pope makes a pronouncement like Pius XII made the solemn declaration that Mary was assumed into heaven in 1950, or in 1854, Pope Pius IX solemnly defined that Mary was Immaculately Conceived, or on certain other occasions, the Pope acting ex cathedra, right, teaching something that all Catholics must hold to, is protected by the Holy Spirit, it's a negative protection, he's protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching heresy, okay? It's infallible, it's infallible teaching, unfailing as it were. There is the ordinary magisterium, which is, you know, as the name would imply, it's the teaching authority which the Pope ordinarily employs.
And as you point out, Bishop Schneider, philosopher Ed Feser, and a number of otherwise good individuals, teach that the Pope can make serious, grievous errors in these other modes, this ordinary mode of teaching. It's just that Francis and Leo are the most extraordinary and prolific examples of this in 2,000 years of Church teaching. There is no backing to this, there is no foundation to assuming that.
Again, it's already been established that when a Pope speaks ex cathedra, that is to say, in his extraordinary magisterium, he is infallible. He can't teach error of any kind, actually, let alone heresy. But what about the ordinary magisterium? Well, the Pope can be infallible even in his ordinary magisterium when, not just one Pope, but a series of Popes teach over a long period of time the same thing again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again to the whole Church. That is infallible. Now, you read this in every dogmatic manual, especially written before Vatican II. That's what you'll find. So, the fact that the Popes 17 times have said that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces and Co-Redemptrix means that those teachings are actually infallible, which actually shows that Pribos is most likely an antipope, because he is, through Tucho, is saying that we can't call Mary Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix, even though the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church, 17 different statements from Popes, have established that that is infallible teaching. That doesn't mean that it's an ex cathedra teaching, because it's not the extraordinary magisterium. My old colleague, Dr. Mark Miravalle, has been petitioning the Holy See to come out and make an extraordinary magisterial statement on the subject. But quite frankly, in the words of Father William Most, one of the best teachers of the 20th century, we don't need it. It's already infallible.
But I got news for you. That's not the only teaching that's been repeated 17 or more times over the course of centuries, actually. There is a teaching that the Pope is indefectible, the successor of Saint Peter cannot defect from the faith. In other words, he cannot teach grievous error that's poisonous to the rest of the Church. This was confirmed at the First Vatican Council, as a matter of fact, and it's also been confirmed dogmatically by other Popes. But with your indulgence, I will read a few quotes just to give an example. There's probably two dozen or more throughout the history of the Church. And this is predicated upon Saint Luke chapter 22, verses 32 through 33, where our Lord says to Saint Peter, he says to him that Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail. When you have come to yourself, confirm your brothers, confirm the brethren. Now, again, there's scores of commentaries by Popes and saints down through the centuries on this point. And the point is, is that the Roman Pontiff cannot teach error, period. I mean, serious error that would land souls in hell if they followed it. So in the back of my book, again, Saints versus Antipopes, I've got an appendix, and in that appendix I list these statements by the most famous statements by Popes and by other saints. So, for example, Saint Lucius I, Pope Martyr, who ruled from 253 to 254, this is under the Decian persecution. I mean, this is in the catacombs, this is really early, right?
This is what he says, the Roman Apostolic Church is the mother of all churches and has never been shown to have wandered from the path of apostolic tradition, nor being deformed, succumbed to heretical novelties, according to the promise of the Lord himself to Peter. Again, Luke 22, verses 31 through 32, I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not. Another early Pope that we could point to, Pope Saint Felix I, Martyr, 269 to 274. He says, speaking of the Roman Church, as it took up in the beginning the norm of the Christian faith from its authors, the princes of the apostles of Christ, she, the Roman see, remains unsullied according to what the Lord said, I have prayed for thee, etc., etc. Pope Damasus I, who ruled from 366 to 382, the first see, therefore, is that of Saint Peter, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish. Let's look to some later Popes. This is Pope Pelagius II, who ruled from 579 to 590. And he cites Luke 22, and he says, see, beloved, the truth cannot be falsified, nor can the faith of Peter ever be shaken or changed. And he goes on to say, well, again, let me give you another quote. The ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 869 repeated the words of Pope Hormisdas from 534 to, excuse me, 514 to 523, because in the apostolic see the Catholic religion has always been kept undefiled, and her well-known doctrine has been kept holy.
So I could literally go through 2,000 years of Catholic history and give you dozens and dozens and dozens of Popes who taught something repeatedly to the whole Church, which means it's infallible. It's infallible that the Pope is indefectible, that he cannot teach heresy. That's what I would say to Bishop Schneider, that's what I would say to Mother Miriam, that's what I would say to Cardinal Burke. It's an infallible teaching of the Church. What are you going to do about it? [This transcription was made with the help of https://chatgpt.com/]
Note: The next post in this series will be Dr. Mazza explaining how historical cardinals dealt with anti-popes.
I ask all The Catholic Monitor readers to also pray for the end of this war. Watch "Trump Calls Putin To Get Iran War Offramp! w/ Scott Ritter" on YouTube: ...Read more Please Pray for Trump to end the Iran War: Watch "Trump Calls Putin To Get Iran War Offramp! w/ Scott Ritter" on YouTubeFranklin & Graham calls on Christians to pray for 'end to the bloodshed' ahead of Trump-Putin summit...7mo
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Conclave Notes:
-- Open letter urges Pope Leo XIV to correct ‘scandalous incoherence’ in Amoris Laetitia...[Wow! Even notorious Popesplainer Fr.] Harrison warns that Pope Francis taught a ‘dangerous self-contradiction’ on Communion for the divorced and ‘remarried,’ petitioning Pope Leo to correct the record. [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2025/08/open-letter-urges-pope-leo-xiv-to.html]
-- Are the Cardinals who will participate in the upcoming conclave authentically appointed & morally justified in voting, or will the shadow of Francis's possible illegitimacy cast itself over the next papacy? [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2025/04/are-cardinals-who-will-participate-in.html]
-- 5 Dubia Questions for 1P5's Steve Skojec & All faithful Catholics especially Francis is definitely Pope Cardinals, Bishops & pundits [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2019/06/5-dubia-questions-for-steve-skojec.html]
Francis Notes:
l– Doctor of the Church St. Francis de Sales totally confirmed beyond any doubt the possibility of a heretical pope and what must be done by the Church in such a situation:
“[T]he Pope… WHEN he is EXPLICITLY a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church MUST either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See.”
(The Catholic Controversy, by St. Francis de Sales, Pages 305-306)
Saint Robert Bellarmine, also, said “the Pope heretic is not deposed ipso facto, but must be declared deposed by the Church.”
[https://archive.org/stream/SilveiraImplicationsOfNewMissaeAndHereticPopes/Silveira%20Implications%20of%20New%20Missae%20and%20Heretic%20Popes_djvu.txt]
– “If Francis is a Heretic, What should Canonically happen to him?”: http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2020/12/if-francis-is-heretic-what-should.html
– “Could Francis be a Antipope even though the Majority of Cardinals claim he is Pope?”: http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2019/03/could-francis-be-antipope-even-though.html
– If Francis betrays Benedict XVI & the”Roman Rite Communities” like he betrayed the Chinese Catholics we must respond like St. Athanasius, the Saintly English Bishop Robert Grosseteste & “Eminent Canonists and Theologians” by “Resist[ing]” him: https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2021/12/if-francis-betrays-benedict-xvi.html
– LifeSiteNews, “Confusion explodes as Pope Francis throws magisterial weight behind communion for adulterers,” December 4, 2017:
The AAS guidelines explicitly allows “sexually active adulterous couples facing ‘complex circumstances’ to ‘access the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist.'”
– On February 2018, in Rorate Caeli, Catholic theologian Dr. John Lamont:
“The AAS statement… establishes that Pope Francis in Amoris Laetitia has affirmed propositions that are heretical in the strict sense.”
– On December 2, 2017, Bishop Rene Gracida:
“Francis’ heterodoxy is now official. He has published his letter to the Argentina bishops in Acta Apostlica Series making those letters magisterial documents.”
Pray an Our Father now for the restoration of the Church by the bishops by the grace of God.
Election Notes:
– Intel Cryptanalyst-Mathematician on Biden Steal: “212Million Registered Voters & 66.2% Voting,140.344 M Voted…Trump got 74 M, that leaves only 66.344 M for Biden” [http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/intel-cryptanalyst-mathematician-on.html?m=1]
– Will US be Venezuela?: Ex-CIA Official told Epoch Times “Chávez started to Focus on [Smartmatic] Voting Machines to Ensure Victory as early as 2003”: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/will-us-be-venezuela-ex-cia-official.html
– Tucker Carlson’s Conservatism Inc. Biden Steal Betrayal is explained by “One of the Greatest Columns ever Written” according to Rush: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/tucker-carlsons-conservatism-inc-biden.html?m=1
– A Hour which will Live in Infamy: 10:01pm November 3, 2020:
http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2021/01/a-hour-which-will-live-in-infamy-1001pm.html?m=1
What is needed right now to save America from those who would destroy our God given rights is to pray at home or in church and if called to even go to outdoor prayer rallies in every town and city across the United States for God to pour out His grace on our country to save us from those who would use a Reichstag Fire-like incident to destroy our civil liberties. [Is the [J6] DC Capitol Incident Comparable to the Nazi Reichstag Fire Incident where the German People Lost their Civil Liberties?: http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/is-dc-capital-incident-comparable-to.html?m=1 and Epoch Times Show Crossroads on Capitol Incident: “Anitfa ‘Agent Provocateurs‘”:
http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2021/01/epoch-times-show-crossroads-on-capital.html?m=1]
Pray an Our Father now for the grace to know God’s Will and to do it.
Pray an Our Father now for America.
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