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Aqua: "The Essence of [Francis is Definitely the Pope] Steve O'Reilly's Argument is: Words don't Matter, Error doesn't Matter, as long as the Intent was Clear. My Argument is: Precise Words Matter such [as]... Mary's Fiat; Eucharistic Consecration; Papal Abdication"

 Lenten Reflection – 25 March – Mary's Fiat must be our fiat! – AnaStpaul

These are visible rites seen as signs and

The Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick - ppt download

The Catholic Monitor hosted a mini debate with the publisher of .RomaLocutaEst, Steven O’Reilly, who is a former intelligence officer in his visit to its comment section in which he argued with the well known commenter Aqua on if Francis is definitely the pope or an antipope. (https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2022/04/the-catholic-monitor-aqua-debate-steven.html)

Here is Aqua's take on the debate with O'Reilly:

Aqua said…
I went back through Steve's comments looking for any direct commentary on the central issue of contention: Benedict XVI's resignation of what the Pope DOES; Benedict XVI's clear and adamant retention of what the Pope IS - he resigned Ministerium; he retained Munus.

My contention with Steve O'Reilly has been over his refusal to argue that essential point. I finally found this:

- Steve O'Reilly quote -

"So bottom line...the Roman Pontiff can resign the papacy. Any numbers of words might be used. There is no list of approved and unapproved words. There is no formula for that. He could say..."I renounce the papacy." Valid. Full stop. The word "munus" does not need to be used. I believe even Estefania Acosta admits that *narrow* point.

The term "mininisterium/ministero" may include 'office' among its definitions. That combined with the fact that Benedict said he renounced the Petrine ministry 'in such a way' that the "See of Rome, See of Peter will be vacant", etc., makes it quite evidence what he was doing. Resigning the papacy. What else leaves the See of Rome, the See of Peter vacant? The answer is obvious. A papal death or resignation. That is what leaves the See vacant. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Finally, though not necessary, but for those 'demanding' munus, we can see the logic of the whole text. He starts off using 'munus' saying he is unable to continue due to age/weakness, and a few sentences later uses the term ministerium in the same way, noting his age/weakness. So the two are logically interchangeable, and we have it on authority, such as Cardinal Burke they are used interchangeably. Why did he make the transition or switch to ministerium? Ultimately, it doesn't matter...but it has been suggested he preferred the more personalistic/relational tone of the use of "ministry."

- end Steve O'Reilly quote -

As with the entire parallel post-conciliar Vatican II newchurch™️, Steve's argument (above) boils down to this:

"It's good enough, close enough, meanings and definitions are open to interpretation and intent; we know what he meant to do; we don't know why he did what he did, said what he said - don't know why he calls himself Emeritus, don't know why he still uses the honorific Holiness, don't know why he still lives in the Vatican. We know what he meant. It is what it is. What will he will be. The Church has already spoken and we must do what they say. The Church is indefectible so any questions must submit to authority which is always right. And so ... Ministerium = Munus. Canon Law says Munus, but any old word will do also. The action is concrete and so the intent is clear. The Pope controls Canon Law and if he says Ministerium = Munus then it is so. If the Pope wants to simply say 'That's all folks', he can. If the Pope wants to remain as an Emeritus Pope, even though he dreamed it up himself - the Pope can do whatever he wants - he is unconstrained by law; a law unto himself. In sum: If the Pope wishes it to be true, then it is true".

I do not believe that. I believe shortcuts and expedience lead to heresy and are the Devil's raw material for his lies and deception to take root. Precision is a core element of the Faith, because there is only *One Way*, and, the *road is narrow; gate is small that lead to life*.

Ministerium ≠ Munus. Ministerium is not even ≈ (approx) Munus. One is one thing. The other is a different thing.

Ministerium = Bergoglio (it was resigned).
Munus = Benedict XVI (it was not resigned).

Thus, the essence of Steve O'Reilly's argument is: words don't matter, error doesn't matter, as long as the intent was clear.

My argument is: precise words matter such that at some times the entire Universe hangs upon them - Mary's Fiat; Eucharistic consecration; Papal abdication
. [https://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2022/04/the-catholic-monitor-aqua-debate-steven.html]

 

Comments

Unknown said…
This only ends with Bergoglio's death. And no one has undertaken that yet. Catholics have only themselves to blame for leaving him in power.
John said…
If the language he used on Feb. 11, 2013 were all the evidence that the renunciation was invalid, it would be a tough case to make. It’s everything besides that makes it doubtful. If Pope Benedict XVI had said the very same words, but had left the Vatican, and aloowed his succesor to define his role, and what color cassock he was to wear, it would be a different story. As it happened, he never left the sovereign territory of the Holy See, which raises great questions as to how free he is, or was at the time of the renunciation. Add to that the fact that he surmised for decades about ways that the Papacy could be altered, and the possibility of “substantial error” is raised very strongly. Add to that the fact that Bergoglio is a complete trainwreck, who doesn’t even try to seem orthodox most of the time, confusion was sure to follow. Long story short, Benedict’s words and actions from Feb 11 through the 28th, 2013, support the hypothesis that he was renouncing the ministerium, but not the munus.
Anonymous said…
You guys need to understand that a Pope can be a material heretic and the faithful are still expected to obey, unless he's telling you to sin and has knowledge that it's a sin etc...thats a different situation. Bergoglio hasn't even been declared a material heretic yet...you and I do not have any authority in the church to declare anything. Benedict is not governing the church...why is this so hard for you guys to accept reality? He's just like a "former President" at this point. Go visit Benedict and then you'll see that he's not running any church anymore. You guys need to accept reality and move on. Fighting modernism is a bigger issue...not if his resignation had been forced...as he never implied at all.
Aqua said…
Anonymous 3:35 pm:

This is your mistake.

"Go visit Benedict and then you'll see that he's not running any church anymore."

The Church is the Body of Christ, the unspotted Bride of a our Lord, of which he is the head.

The Pope does not "run" the Church. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and is responsible to Christ the King who "runs" His Church both now and in eternity which will be raised up one day at the Eschaton into heaven.

The Church does not change. It is fixed, because it is perfect.

The Pope is the servant of The Sacred Deposit of Faith and must protect it, transmit it to the Faithful, evangelize it to the world and then one day deliver it to his successor.

I, as a Catholic, belong to the Church that is eternally unchanging, past, present, future. I worship Jesus Christ, through Holy Mother Church and I approach Jesus through the intercession of Holy Mary, Mother of God.

The Pope, the real Pope, helps me and all Faithful, in the Body of Christ to meet Jesus and get to heaven.
Anonymous said…
Christ is the head of the church obviously...but the Pope handles the day to day affairs and teachings to the church universally. Think of him as a royal steward to the King...Christ in this case. Kings couldn't handle all the governance themselves traditionally (as humans) Christ is obviously greater than a human king. Did Peter not head the first council in Jerusalem?

I agree with you on a lot of things actually, but Benedict is only governing his choices as to his meals and any books he decides to put out there...he's not managing any church currently. He's not the Pope anymore. Bergoglio's election had not been challenged by a single Cardinal. He has every right to assume the papacy then. I think he's a modernist, but I can't prove he's a heretic yet. The CHURCH has not declared him to be a heretic. It puts the faithful in a tough spot. I don't adhere to Vatican II in my personal practice as it had been a pastoral council as Paul VI even said so himself...
Anonymous said…
btw Fred feel free to email me. avemaria@lavabit.com
Aqua said…
Anonymous: I think you missed the main point of my summary and the entire debate with O'Reilly - Benedict XVI resigned the Ministerium and granted that alone to the new occupant of the See of Peter; Benedict did not resign the Munus, which is the power and essence of the Papacy, it IS the Papacy; Canon Law (331,332,333) in almost every paragraph that defines the Papacy defines it in terms of Munus and Munus alone ... including, importantly, the extremely rare resignation from the Papacy which is defined as resignation from the Munus in 332.2.

In sum: Benedict XVI gave an antipope power to "run" the parallel anti-church, said antipope occupying the See of Peter *without* the Munus of the Papacy. Benedict "remains firmly and forever within the fold of St. Peter in a life of contemplation and prayer; in a new way, so to speak" - his words.

The Pope is hidden with the Munus.
The antipope is "running" the anti church (foretold by none other than Venerable Arbp Fulton Sheen), with the Ministerium.

Words matter, and they matter supremely when the subject is the Vicar of Christ the King in his divinely ordained Munus (Office) of Pope - visible head of the Church; monarch of Christ's visible Kingdom. "Close enough" doesn't cut it - confirmed by everything that has happened since that dreadful day.
Aqua said…
Anonymous:

"Think of him as a royal steward to the King...Christ in this case."

Of the many ways I think of Jorge Bergoglio ... this does not fit into the galaxy of possibility.

That is a true statement, what you said. And all good Catholics unite around such a statement. It fills us with hope, courage.

And that it is not so in this case is the sum of the problem and one of the chief proofs of the power of the Munus of Christ's Vicar beyond mere honorific title - it is a mystical connection between man and God ... precisely how Jesus intended when he established His Church, and the absence of it is devastating.
Fred Martinez said…
Anonymous 3:35 pm said: "Anonymous said…
btw Fred feel free to email me. avemaria@lavabit.com"

Who are you and what do you do?

Why are you using Lavabit and encrypted email anonymous tag?

Your address avemaria@lavabit.com in a search DuckDuckgo lists some of the following:

Lavabit is the encrypted email leader. Get the best, by those who...
[Search domain lavabit.com] https://lavabit.com
Lavabit is the encrypted email leader. Get the best, by those who invented it.

Avemaria7732 | Platinmods.com - Android & iOS MODs, Mobile...
[Search domain platinmods.com] https://platinmods.com › members › avemaria7732.2808021
Avemaria7732 - Member Of The Platinmods Community. Avemaria7732. Rookie · 21 · From 1.

Loliwood Studios: Child Erotica at its Best
[Search domain web.archive.org] https://web.archive.org › web › 20120502170652 › http: › › www.asstr.org › ~LS › update › update.html
CC's profile cccccc123456@lavabit.com Ol' cc has been writing underage M/g 'spanking and sex' stories and posting them at asstr.org for over 10 years. He specializes in surprisingly gentle and...


Lavabit - Wikipedia
[Search domain en.wikipedia.org] https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Lavabit
Lavabit is an open-source encrypted webmail service, founded in 2004. The service suspended its operations on August 8, 2013 after the U.S. Federal Government ordered it to turn over its Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) private keys, in order to allow the government to spy on Edward Snowden's email.
Fred Martinez said…
Are you possibly associated with Ave Maria University?

Home - Ave Maria University
[Search domain avemaria.edu] https://www.avemaria.edu
Ave Maria University is a Catholic, liberal arts institution of higher learning devoted to Mary the Mother of God, inspired by St. John Paul II and St. Teresa of Calcutta, and dedicated to the formation of joyful, intentional followers of Jesus Christ through Word and Sacrament, scholarship and service. YouTube.
T said…
He’s already crossed the material/formal heresy line. It is heresy to claim that the death penalty is contrary to the gospel. It contradicts divine law to be for same sex unions. In both cases it is incredible to claim that he doesn’t know what the Church teaches.

The only problem that we have is that no one officially declared he is outside the Church. The only reason that anyone can judge him is because he is no longer the pope. So there is a distinction between ontological truth and legal truth. God is not bound by human law. It cannot be the case that he is the pope until someone canonically declares it, for then an inferior will judge a superior.
Anonymous said…
I have no idea what this is about:
Loliwood Studios: Child Erotica at its Best
[Search domain web.archive.org] https://web.archive.org › web › 20120502170652 › http: › › www.asstr.org › ~LS › update › update.html
CC's profile cccccc123456@lavabit.com Ol' cc has been writing underage M/g 'spanking and sex' stories and posting them at asstr.org for over 10 years. He specializes in surprisingly gentle and.

-Not involved in any of that ...so I think your search had gone a bit off the rails there. That CC profile isn't tied to my account. Don't need to email me, that's fine. I am just trying to knock some common sense into peoples heads. Benedict is not the Pope period. His time is over as Pope.
Anonymous said…
A council can judge a Pope a heretic but it is a non-coercive judgment called the discretionary judgment. That is because no one has coercive authority over the Pope. By remaining contumacious the Pope judges himself and Christ deposes him. We have an article on this. Also a Catholic cannot be a material heretic.

Bellarmine taught this explicitly and even said the Pope as Pope can be judged and convicted of heresy by a council. People don't know this because they have not read the original Latin manual

He loses it "by the fact" that the Church has judged and convicted him of the crime of heresy. If not, he remains Pope. The Church is a legal institution, the papacy is a legal office, jurisdiction is a legal power, heresy is a legal crime, and to lose a legal office requires a legal judgment by the requisite legal authority.
Fred Martinez said…
Anonymous 3:35 pm said: "Anonymous said…
btw Fred feel free to email me. avemaria@lavabit.com"

I'm not saying you're involved in that, but that is some of what came. DuckDuckgo your email address to confirm it if you want. Usually, I can get info on who you are. I don't have time to do a deep research on you and your origins. If you are legit then tell me in general terms who you are you and what do you do? Or, here using reason explain why "Benedict is not the Pope period. His time is over as Pope" and not by using advertising-like propaganda.
Anonymous said…
Mr. Martinez,

I'm no one, but a simple servant of the church and someone that has no desire to be in the spotlight. It's rare that I even comment on blogs...but Mr. O'Reilly is up a against a pack of wolves that are misleading the sheep. I'm not implying you're one of them, but some of the others. They're getting them to buy into the Beneplenist theory. I've read your responses and I don't even say that you don't make some interesting points...but the simple reality is that I'm not promoting propaganda...I'm promoting the truth. Take it from someone that had a long journey to the truth. I've been outside the church before, and then it took a long time to return to it.

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