Spiritual hunger, erotic desire mesh in [Christopher West's] Theology of the Body, Catholic High grad explains ...lancasteronline.com
Fr. Chad Ripperger agrees that pollution outside the
natural act is gravely immoral for the wife as well as for the husband.
Ripperger : “Among the married, some kinds of foreplay are permissible, and some are not.”
“Pollution also applies to women…. the same actually applies to women
as does to men. I know that some moralists say that it’s okay for women
to … reach climax outside the context of [marital sex] and that it’s
fine as long as the male doesn’t do it. But the moralists … the Saints
and those who’ve written based on the Saints say that that’s not the
case…. because God condemned Onanism in the Old Testament, you can’t
engage in anything that is basically on the level of Onanism, and so you
have to be very careful about observing that.”
[...]
But soon afterward, Fr. Dave Nix, whose position seems to be similar to my own, offered to debate Gordon.
Fr. Nix to Gordon: “Quote me on this thread and debate me. I’ll take you on publicly or privately, as I said.”
And Gordon’s reply was silence (as far as I know). Perhaps they will
debate at some time. Fr. Nix also cited Fr. Hugh Barbour on this topic,
whose position is also similar to my own and contrary to Gordon,
Christopher West, et alia.
“And I suppose you don’t like Prummer either? The
argument from silence is also incredibly strong. If foreplay leading up
to unitive climax were wrong, don’t you think the Magisterium would have
mentioned it like ever?”
“The argument from silence?” Okay. Pope Saint John Paul II wrote and
spoke extensively on marital sexual ethics, and he never once approved
of the use of unnatural sexual acts in marriage, even as foreplay, even
without male climax. Never did he approve of the wife’s climax outside
the natural act either. He instead requires each sexual act to be
unitive and procreative. - Ron Conte website
The Catholic Monitor found an interesting exchange between Church Militant's Robert David Gordon, the brother of Tim Gordon, and Fr. David Nix on Onanism. It was found in the Ron Conte website:
I believe the show he references is here: RULES FOR RETROGRADES on YouTube, with his brother Tim Gordon.
David R Gordon: “Lol. I’ve read your arguments. You
contradict Pius XII, who says that the freedom in the marital bed is
great as long as the man’s seed ends in the right place. You parse every
single kiss during the marital act from the act itself, taking it upon
yourself to outlaw foreplay.”
That quote is actually from British analytical philosopher GEM Anscombe: A Quote on Marriage misattributed to Pope Pius XII.
And interestingly, it is usually falsely referenced as from the Pius
XII Address to the Second World Congress on Fertility and Sterility — in
which the Pontiff actually states the opposite of the Anscombe quote.
Also, I do not outlaw foreplay. My book has an entire chapter: “Licit
Marital Foreplay”. But according to the basic principles of ethics
taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, each human act has
three fonts of morality (intention, object, circumstances) and each act
must have three good fonts to be moral. Foreplay is no exception. Some
acts of foreplay are moral, and others are immoral. In particular,
intrinsically evil sexual acts are gravely immoral to use, even in
marriage, for the purpose of foreplay, about the same time as a good act
of natural marital relations.
I’m going to skip over some tweets that are redundant, or to which I
have essentially replied above or below. But Gordon did use some
personal attacks and negative rhetoric, such as “It’s sheer nuttery. I
don’t know what is behind your daft and indefensible position…” And my
reply is that I have the same position on marital sexual ethics as Saint
Alphonsus Liguori, and I am presenting the teachings of Sacred
Scripture, the Saints, John Paul II, and the Magisterium on this topic,
not some unique position of my own. Also, my book reviews 11 different
priests and theologians who have similar positions. (I don’t know if
they agree on every point.)
Gordon: “Anytime climax happens outside the right place, it’s sinful (pollution).”
Yes, it would be sinful (if deliberate of course). However, Gordon
later approves of climax for the wife while the spouses are not one
flesh and when there is no procreative finality. So he contradicts
himself.
By the way, Fr. Chad Ripperger agrees that pollution outside the
natural act is gravely immoral for the wife as well as for the husband.
Ripperger : “Among the married, some kinds of foreplay are permissible, and some are not.”
“Pollution also applies to women…. the same actually applies to women
as does to men. I know that some moralists say that it’s okay for women
to … reach climax outside the context of [marital sex] and that it’s
fine as long as the male doesn’t do it. But the moralists … the Saints
and those who’ve written based on the Saints say that that’s not the
case…. because God condemned Onanism in the Old Testament, you can’t
engage in anything that is basically on the level of Onanism, and so you
have to be very careful about observing that.”
So my position is not unique, and is found among Catholic theologians today, as well as in past times.
Gordon: “I’ve read your stuff. I don’t have much time for
a whole Twitter debate. How about we debate it on my show or in front
of a live audience? Consider the gauntlet thrown down. I’ll whup you and
end your nonsense for good. You game?”
He has not read (yet) my book “The Catholic Marriage Bed: Revised
Edition” which was just released. He must have read some older posts or
articles some years ago.
I declined his offer for a debate on a live show. I think this topic
requires written theological arguments. Mine are in many articles at
Catechism.cc and in my book The Catholic Marriage Bed. Gordon has no
book or articles (AFAIK) on this topic. Also, his heavy use of negative
rhetoric and personal attacks, as well as his repeated false statements
on this topic lead me to conclude that I should not participate in such a
live debate.
Gordon: “lol. You just don’t want to get pwned and lose
the rest of your credibility. You just make stuff up and call it Church
teaching. Back to fooling the rubes. I know you know what Jone says and
reject it out of hand.”
What theologian speaks this way? Across several tweets: “pwned,
fooling the rubes, the gauntlet thrown down, whup you, you game?, sheer
nuttery, lol, daft, neo-Puritan, pot/kettle”.
But soon afterward, Fr. Dave Nix, whose position seems to be similar to my own, offered to debate Gordon.
Fr. Nix to Gordon: “Quote me on this thread and debate me. I’ll take you on publicly or privately, as I said.”
And Gordon’s reply was silence (as far as I know). Perhaps they will
debate at some time. Fr. Nix also cited Fr. Hugh Barbour on this topic,
whose position is also similar to my own and contrary to Gordon,
Christopher West, et alia.
“And I suppose you don’t like Prummer either? The
argument from silence is also incredibly strong. If foreplay leading up
to unitive climax were wrong, don’t you think the Magisterium would have
mentioned it like ever?”
“The argument from silence?” Okay. Pope Saint John Paul II wrote and
spoke extensively on marital sexual ethics, and he never once approved
of the use of unnatural sexual acts in marriage, even as foreplay, even
without male climax. Never did he approve of the wife’s climax outside
the natural act either. He instead requires each sexual act to be
unitive and procreative. [https://ronconte.com/2019/11/16/a-twitter-debate-on-marital-sexual-ethics/]
Below is an old Catholic Monitor post on Christopher West:
Here is a post I did in August 16, 2014. I wasn't a Traditionalist at
the time so I would probably write it differently now. But, it
still shows some of the problems with Theology of the Body:
I hadn't thought of writing in over a year until, a some weeks ago, I read Alice von Hildebrand's new book "The Dark Night of the Body" which is on the problems with Christopher West's Theology of the Body (TOB) and how it misrepresents the Pope John Paul II's teaching in some areas.
The
book is excellent, but it and all the articles, I read, on this
subject seemed flawed because they didn't use quotes from TOB refuting
West's misunderstandings.
I felt called to write an article that remedied this deficiency.
Fred
PS-Below is the article and scholar Thomas Howard's email commenting on my article. (Mr. Howard wrote a blurb for the back cover of von Hildebrand's"The Dark Night of the Body.")
Dear Mr. Martinez:
I
think your piece on Chris West does touch on the crux of the
difficulty that he poses for those (including me) who want to remain
faithful to biblical and catholic teaching on sexual morality. It
certainly has seemed to a lot of us that Chris sails far too near
the wind, and that some of his statements grant too much to us
mortals, e.g., "looking" without "lusting." Show me the man who
lives that way!
I should think Dr. von Hildebrand would appreciate your contribution to the discussion!
Best regards,
Tom Howard
Is Christopher West the Next Fr. Corapi?
"If
[Christopher West is] saying that unavoidable near occasions of sin
present an opportunity to practice virtue, he's right. If he's saying
this does not at least begin with keeping custody of the eyes, he
wrong. Very wrong. Stupidly wrong. ... If he's advising [this] he
should be stripped of his EWTN Rock Star status as Fr. Corapi”
according to Thomas Leith.
This
piece is not about knocking down West’s general body of work, or even
for that matter Corapi’s, they have brought thousands of souls back
to the faith. My niece says of them:
“I
credit Christopher West teachings, in large part, for bringing me and
my husband back to the faith. I pray that he is not the next
Fr.Corapi, as I was so heartbroken in watching how things played out
with him. Along with Theology of the Body, I owe Father much credit
for reeling me back to the Church.”
I hope that West will not become the next fallen EWTN Rock Star.
His general body of work seems sound, but he
makes two mistakes that have sent him on a path of teaching
incorrectly some aspects of the total and true meaning of Theology of
the Body (TOB) of Pope John Paul ll.
In
a Protestant fashion he appears to be a sola-Theology of the Body and
therefore ignores critics who don’t quote TOB, but quote past Popes
or Doctors of the Church.
As
did Martin Luther with the Bible phrase “justified by faith apart
from works,” he is taking a certain passage of the Pope’s TOB
teachings which he makes all important while ignoring other passages
in that body of work that bring out the full meaning of that passage.
West's “justified by faith apart from works” phrase from John Paul II is:
“In mature purity, man enjoys the fruits of victory over concupiscence.”
On the set of a TV interview, he showed how his total focus on this phrase has lead him to deep error:
“During a university TV interview of Christopher West
[actually, a panel discussion on “Franciscan University Presents”] a
professor [Dr. Scott Hahn] told West that if he were to see a
friend’s wife [the friend being fellow panellist Dr. Regis Martin] naked, it would be his responsibility to look away.”
“West responded, ‘No, it would be to not lust.’
[Hahn] and West took turns repeating themselves until the moderator
called for a break in the program.” [1] Drawing upon other accounts,
this exchange began when West began speaking about his doctrine of
“mature purity”, whereby when we grow enough in chastity, we should
dispense with practicing “custody of the eyes” which is merely an
initial “negative” step for those in the “purgative stage” of purity,
and should instead look upon women and their God-given beauty with the
‘pure gaze of love.’”
“Considering
how contrary this is to the Catholic Tradition (as will be shown
later), Hahn objected and told West we could never be sure we were in
that state and that we would remain in that state if we gazed."
Pope Puis Xll, St. Francis de Sales and other Doctors of the Church teach that “custody of the eyes can’t be dispensed.
Luther
similarly had problems with Catholic Tradition and he ignored other
parts of the bible such as St. Jame's "Faith without works is dead"
which went against “justified by faith apart from works.”
Likewise, West ignores the Pope’s TOB phrases that are a sharp rejection his explanation of the “mature purity” phrase:
"[T]he
Sermon on the Mount Christ did not invite man to return to the state
of original innocence, because humanity has irrevocably left it behind
...The ethos of redemption contains in every area—and directly in the
sphere of the lust of the flesh—the imperative of self-control, the
necessity of immediate continence and of habitual temperance." [http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb48.htm, Christ Calls Us to Rediscover the Living Forms of the New Man, GENERAL AUDIENCE OF 3 DECEMBER 1980]
Looking
at a friend’s naked wife instead of turning away is the opposite of
the Catholic definition of immediate continence which is to control
unruly movements of sexual desire; and habitual temperance which is to
moderate sex desires of body emotions.
Pope
John Paul ll expert Fr. Gregory Gresko explains in what way West is
wrong in his understanding of the “mature purity” phrase.
First, he misunderstands that the TOB is talking about spouse's seeing the other spouse’s body. When the Pope speaks of the virtue of chastity in seeing or looking at bodies he is not talking about the "attempt to look at any
body with the hope of seeing the other with pure eyes, West’s
theological presentation is under serious threat of becoming an
apologia for pornography.”
Next, he is reducing persons to no more than bodies."
What West "is missing from the discussion is the greatest need to love other persons most, encountering them as integrated bodies and souls."
Here is Fr. Greskois full discussion on West's misinterpretation of the “mature purity” phrase:
"Such
purity involves one spouse’s ability to see the other spouse’s body
in purity. Spouses certainly should not be seeking to look at other
persons’ naked bodies (except when necessary to care for their children
or when medically required, with the obvious complete respect for
human dignity that is due).”
“However,
West argues that mature purity at a virtuous level signifies being
able to look at any body and maintaining perfect chastity; if he has
to look away, West states that he is merely continent but not
virtuous, although admitting that the vast majority of persons would
find themselves in such a position. If discussions on the virtue of
chastity, or “mature purity”, attempt to look at any body with
the hope of seeing the other with pure eyes, West’s theological
presentation is under serious threat of becoming an apologia for
pornography, which is precisely the separation of the body from the
person.”
“West
spends much time talking about the importance of loving others’
bodies properly, but what is missing from the discussion is the
greatest need to love other persons most, encountering them as
integrated bodies and souls, with virginal innocence. Loving persons
accordingly is consonant with Karol Cardinal Wojtyla’s articulation of
the personalistic norm in Love and Responsibility, without reducing the person to mere bodiliness."[http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2164]
Is this misinterpretation of the Pope’s TOB an apology for pornography?
Inside the Vatican writer Simcha Fisher’s book review of West ‘s At the Heart of the Gospel claims the author support pornography:
“A
generous reading of West’s claim that evil is to be suffered rather
than thrown out is that he would never intend his words to be used to
support pornography. However, he uses those very same words in a
January 2012 online audio interview promoting At the Heart of the Gospel—and this time there is no question about what he means:”
“There’s
always something good behind the evil that we have to reclaim, that
we have to take back. On this topic, we could look at pornography, for
example. Pornography is a great evil. It is destroying marriages, it
is destroying families, it is wreaking havoc in our culture. And yet,
we must not overreact. There is something good behind it. What is
good behind it? The human body in its nakedness. Behold, it is very
good!”
I
would rather say it is possible his teaching is a “serious threat of
becoming an apologia for pornography.” It is possible he means the
human body in its nakedness behind closed doors between two spouses is
very good. However, his support of looking at a friend’s naked
wife as a general norm from his misinterpretation of the “mature
purity” weights against this interpretation
A main argument the author of At the Heart of the Gospel uses in his defense of his misinterpretation of “mature purity” is his story of “two bishops.”
Dawn
Eden says West claims it is “adapted from the story of Bishop St.
Nonnus of Edessa and the harlot Pelagia.” Here is West’s distorted
version of story of St. Nonnus as recorded by Eden:
“The
following story illustrates what mature Christian purity looks like.
Two bishops walked out of a cathedral just as a scantily clad
prostitute passed by. One bishop immediately turned away. The other
bishop looked at her intently. The bishop who turned away exclaimed,
‘Brother bishop, what are you doing? Turn your eyes!’”
“When
the bishop turned around, he lamented with tears streaming down his
face, ‘How tragic that such beauty is being sold to the lusts of men.’
Which one of those bishops was vivified with the ethos of redemption?
Which one had passed over from merely meeting the demands of the law
to a superabounding fulfillment of the law?”
Below is the true story of St. Nonnus:
“While
Bishop of Heliopolis, St. Nonnus went with his deacon to Antioch for a
synod with the Archbishop of Antioch and six other bishops. While
there, St. Nonnus was asked to preach on the steps of the church one
day after Divine Liturgy. Just then, Pelagia, the most notorious
prostitute in Antioch, passed by with a crowd of foolish young men.
The seven other bishops averted their gaze as to not be tempted by her
appearance, but St. Nonnus stared intently at her, weeping that such
great beauty was being wasted on such great sin and that she cares for
her body even more than he cares for his soul.”
“He spent that night in tears praying for her conversion saying, ‘O
Lord, suffer not the work of Thy hands to perish, and permit not such
beauty to remain in subjection to the demons. But do Thou turn her to
Thyself, that Thy holy name may be glorified in her, for all things
are possible for Thee.’"
“During
the course of this night, he had a vision that he was at the altar
during the Divine Liturgy. A black dove flew in, circled his head, and
smelled so foul that he could not abide the stench. When the deacon
cried out ‘Catechumens depart’, the dove left. After Divine Liturgy,
the dove returned, still filthy, and St. Nonnus plunged it into the
baptismal font. The dove emerged pure white and flew away.”
“The next morning, a Sunday, after Divine Liturgy, St. Nonnus was
again asked to preach. St. Pelagia again happened by and was moved to
tears by his sermon. She wrote with her own hand, ‘To Christ’s holy
disciple from the devil’s disciple, a sinful woman. I have heard that
your God has bowed the heavens and come down to earth, not to save the
righteous but sinners.’”
The
West story is a distortion in the same way it would be a distortion
to tell the story of Jesus’ mercy in saving the adulteress from being
stoned if one left out Jesus’ parting words to her. “Go now and sin no
more.”
In
one sense West is right it could be Christ like to look intently at
another person who happened to be scantily clad or naked if ones
consuming concern were her soul; if West’s story were told like this
it could possibly not be distortion of the true story.
But even considering all the above Eden adds:
“Most
significantly, when Pelagia then writes to the bishop and asks to see
him, he agrees only on the condition that there be other bishops
present. ‘[S]eek not to tempt my weakness,’ he writes.’ Eden explains:
‘It is not surprising that West omits that last detail, as, by his
own definition, it would mean Bishop St. Nonnus was insufficiently
virtuous.”
My
advice to West is to stop telling a distorted even false story of
Bishop St. Nonnus. If he is to tell the story, tell the total true
story.
The
tragedy of the story is not that such a beautiful body should be sold
to the lusts of men instead of that men who are of “mature purity”
should look upon that woman’s scantily clad or naked body with her
“God-given beautiful body” with the “pure gaze of love.”
The tragedy of Pelagia is “that she cares for her body even more than he cares for his soul.”
It
would be a tragedy if Christopher West cared more for his
misinterpretation of “mature purity” than the true teachings of the
Pope’s Theology of the Body.
Pope John Paul ll specifically teaches in his TOB section on “the privacy of one's own body:”
“The person of developed sensitivity overcomes the
limit of that shame with difficulty and interior resistance. This is
seen clearly even in situations which justify the necessity of
undressing the body, such as in the case of medical examinations or
operations. Mention should also be made especially of other
circumstances, such as those of concentration camps or places of
extermination, where the violation of bodily shame is a method used
deliberately to destroy personal sensitivity and the sense of human
dignity. “
“The same rule is confirmed everywhere—though in different ways. Following
personal sensitivity, man does not wish to become an object for
others through his own anonymous nakedness. Nor does he wish the other
to become an object for him in a similar way.”
Another
tragedy besides West teaching the opposite of the Pope’s TOB
teachings would be that the great beauty of most of West’s work which
have brought so many back to the Church and away from sin might be
wasted.
Following
the example of St. Nonnus, I pray daily for Christopher West not to
waste his great God-given talent and work on the pride of one mistake.
I, also, pray daily for Fr. Corapi not waste he great God-given talent and work.
Please Christopher West don’t break more hearts.
Please Fr. Corapi help to heal the broken hearts of those like who my niece who love your work. Return to the Church.
Pray an Our Father now that God give you the grace to do what He is
calling you to do and for the conversion of those resisting God.
Stop
for a moment of silence, ask Jesus Christ what He wants you to do now
and next. In this silence remember God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost -
Three Divine Persons yet One God, has an ordered universe where you can
know truth and falsehood as well as never forget that He wants you to
have eternal happiness with Him as his son or daughter by grace. Make
this a practice. By doing this you are doing more good than reading
anything here or anywhere else on the Internet.Francis Notes:
- Doctor
of the Church St. Francis de Sales totally confirmed beyond any doubt
the possibility of a heretical pope and what must be done by the Church
in such a situation:
"[T]he Pope... WHEN he is EXPLICITLY a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church MUST either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See."
(The Catholic Controversy, by St. Francis de Sales, Pages 305-306)
Saint Robert Bellarmine, also, said "the Pope heretic is not deposed ipso facto, but must be declared deposed by the Church."
[https://archive.org/stream/SilveiraImplicationsOfNewMissaeAndHereticPopes/Silveira%20Implications%20of%20New%20Missae%20and%20Heretic%20Popes_djvu.txt]
- "If Francis is a Heretic, What should Canonically happen to him?": http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2020/12/if-francis-is-heretic-what-should.html
- "Could Francis be a Antipope even though the Majority of Cardinals claim he is Pope?": http://www.thecatholicmonitor.com/2019/03/could-francis-be-antipope-even-though.html
-
LifeSiteNews, "Confusion explodes as Pope Francis throws magisterial
weight behind communion for adulterers," December 4, 2017:
The AAS guidelines explicitly allows "sexually active adulterous
couples facing 'complex circumstances' to 'access the sacraments of
Reconciliation and the Eucharist.'"
- On February 2018, in Rorate Caeli, Catholic theologian Dr. John Lamont:
"The AAS statement... establishes that Pope Francis in Amoris Laetitia
has affirmed propositions that are heretical in the strict sense."
- On December 2, 2017, Bishop Rene Gracida:
"Francis' heterodoxy is now official. He has published his letter to
the Argentina bishops in Acta Apostlica Series making those letters
magisterial documents."
- [2017] Pope’s Letter on Argentinian Communion Guidelines for Remarried Given Official Status
A letter
from Pope Francis praising episcopal guidelines that would allow
divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Holy Communion in some cases
while living in a state of objective grave sin has now been added to
the official acts of the Apostolic See [AAS], conferring official status on
what was formerly considered by many to be merely private communication —
and raising the stakes on the Amoris Laetitia debate significantly.
Of the guidelines issued by the bishops
of the Buenos Aires region that would open “the possibility of access to
the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist” in “complex
circumstances” where “limitations that lessen the responsibility and
guilt” of couples who will not make the commitment to “live in
continence” despite living in an objectively adulterous situation, the
pope said in his letter that “The document is very good and completely
explains the meaning of chapter VIII of Amoris Laetitia. There are no
other interpretations.”
In August of this year, this letter was
added to the Vatican website as a papal document available for public
reference. Concerns were raised that what had previously been viewed as
only private correspondence — and thus, completely outside the realm of
papal magisterium — was being given the appearance of an official papal
act. [https://catholictruthscotland.com/2017/12/03/concern-over-pope-francis-grows-schism-looms-cardinals-must-act/]
Pray an Our Father now for the restoration of the Church by the bishops by the grace of God.
Election Notes:
-
Intel Cryptanalyst-Mathematician on Biden Steal: "212Million
Registered Voters & 66.2% Voting,140.344 M Voted...Trump got 74 M,
that leaves only 66.344 M for Biden" [http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/intel-cryptanalyst-mathematician-on.html?m=1]
-
Will US be Venezuela?: Ex-CIA Official told Epoch Times "Chávez
started to Focus on [Smartmatic] Voting Machines to Ensure Victory as
early as 2003": http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2020/12/will-us-be-venezuela-ex-cia-official.html
Pray an Our Father now for the grace to know God's Will and to do it.
Pray an Our Father now for America.
Pray
an Our Father now for the restoration of the Church as well as the
Triumph of the Kingdom of the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of
Mary.
Comments
The rules - No kids. Lock the doors. Take notes is fine, but no recordings allowed.
The teaching was pure orthodoxy. That's all I'll say. It was so simple. It was so obviously true.
I mostly wanted to hi-light what our Priest said at the end in response to the question: "where can we get additional resources to continue up our study"?
His response: "You can't".
Funny. Why?
This material is available only in Latin.me it will remain so, to prevent misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Receive this instruction from your Priest. If you have questions, ask your Priest.
Yeah .... I don't think Chris West or the Gordon Bros have anything to say to me on this. I like my Priest. I respect him a lot. He's keeping me on the straight and narrow. On any question I only want to know - what does Sacred Tradition say - and I need to have confidence that I will receive that answer in full. I have found that. I highly recommend it - SSPX Parish life.